Pulp Culture + Trev Wood

On this episode we’re joined by Aussie comic creator Trev Wood, a Melbourne mainstay in the indie comic scene since 2007. Known for UNMASKED: THE SINISTER, the cult webcomic SAWBONES, and work featured in TALGARD, Trev brings bold pulp energy to every project. We chat comics, creativity and the realities of indie publishing.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to Pulp Culture Plus, uh your bonus hit of one on one deep dive with creative talent from Australia and around the world, a show where we unpack the process, the passion, and everything in between about being creative. On this week's show, our guest is someone who has been a mainstay of the Aussie comic world since 2007. If you spent any time at Aussie comic conventions or keeping an eye on Gestalt Comics, you would already know his work is a total visual feast. He's a co-creator behind the bone crunching superhero epic Unmasked the Sinister and a long um and also the long-running cult favourite webcomic uh Sawbones. Whether he's diving into sword and sorcery in the Telgard um anthology or bringing old god champions to life, his style is pure unfiltered energy. He's a local Melbourne legend, visual wizard, and he's uh here to talk shop about the grind of the gear and the glory of publishing comics. Please welcome to the show, my friend, and it's so interviewed, yours, Trevor Wood. Welcome Trevor. Look, it's it's taken a bit a long time since you and I've done this. We I think the last time we did this was uh during COVID when we did the uh Rem All Stars.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah, that was so much fun, and um I still get people like saying how much they enjoy those and uh and their kids go back to them again and again.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Um I mean look, it was a time when we all needed something to gravitate towards, and uh you've been a mainstay in the in the industry. You're currently doing you know some some interesting work with Gestalt with Unmask the Sinister. Where where did that sort of all take place?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

How did I get involved in uh Gestalt and Sinister? Yeah. Look, like I love what Gestalt do. I just think I don't know if people notice this, but uh Gestalt have been doing comics in Australia for 20 years. They've always had this reputation for just quality comics. And recently I think they've their slogan used to be story first, and I love that it speaks to me, and I'm very much a uh, you know, I'm I always want to sell a page and and put my best work into it, but I always go for clarity over flash, and so the idea of comics being a storytelling medium is what draws me to comics. So when Gastol, you know, had that slogan, story first, I'm 100% on board. They've now changed their slogan to or their tagline to Australia's finest comics, and I I I think it's also really hard to disagree with that one, too. So um, there's a whole bunch of reasons for working with those guys, they're amazing storytellers. Years ago, I did a portfolio, I went up to Sydney to get a portfolio review, and the portfolio team was somebody from Dark Horse Comics and Wolfgang. Yeah, from Castolt. And the the feedback I got from from Dark Horse is absolutely what you'd expect. They are a major publisher. But Wolf's comments was the one that just hit me really hard. I'd done this beautiful, stunning page, vaulted ceilings, all this detail. It's the the kind of thing that a an art fan just, you know, you draw it and you go, I'm I'm gonna make people look at this page and be blown away by my skill. But it was somebody crossing a room, wasn't it? You know, it was a stunning picture of somebody crossing a room. And that was the feedback, which was you know, you have wasted one of 22 pages showing somebody crossing a room. This is while a beautiful piece of artwork, not storytelling. And I was like, Oh my god, and I went back to the writer at the time saying I've got to redraw this, and he's like, No, but that means I have to rework everything. But I just, you know, always want to take on valuable criticism. And Wolf is just an amazing, got an amazing eye for story and go, This is what it is, this is what's not needed, and so I just wanted to work with him specifically. So I was very fortunate to get to do a story with Talgard. If people don't know what Talgard is, it's an amazing anthology book from um Gary Proudly. And the premise is that there's a single character or single main character, Talgard, and he goes on adventures, and each story is drawn by a um a different Australian artist. Same writer, same colourist, but all the stories are done by different artists. So it's an amazing, genuinely, I love talking about castle books, other people's gastal books. It's harder to talk about mine. But um, but Talgard is an amazing book for people who want to get into comics or want to discover Australian artists because there's these sampler boxes where you can go, I'm a Dean Rankin fan or a Kan, or you can discover these artists and and then from this springboard to more of those stories. So I got I got to do that story. I had such so much fun. Um, and yeah, I think uh that experience um led Wolf to connect me with Christian Reed, who was uh looking for an artist on The Sinister.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah, no, nice. And I mean you're in good company with Gestalt too. And I mean they like you say, they are doing some really amazing things, especially introducing um this sort of new arm with indigiverse as well, and you know, giving a voice uh to First Nations people. That's one of the things for me, with my background uh in design, is I've always seen that that they really showcase their books really well when it comes to conventions as well as you know, presentation, paper quality is always great, and they're they're they're they're caliber of people that are part of uh part of the gestalt name. Everyone should be really proud of.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Absolutely. I think they uh uh are absolutely phenomenal eye for design as well. There's been quite a few things with the way the sinister started and where it progressed to. A lot of that is Wolf's eye of going and sometimes it's the Jaws effect, which is you know, Jaws was going to be all about a giant mechanical shark and and it didn't work, and so that led them to actually make a better film where you you know you don't see the shark.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

And so some so with um with The Sinister, I think we originally intended for the book to be colored, and as we were working through the book, uh, we were just looking for a the right colourist, and the colourists weren't available at the time.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

But also, you know, more and more black and white pages were coming in. And often I had the conversation that we said, I think this is gonna, you know, there might be a version down the track, a trade, which has got colour, but this is working really well in a black and white format. So why don't we lean into that? And the minute that happened, uh, you know, he started making these really striking covers that just punch you in the face when you walk around a convention floor, everybody else has got these these massive amounts of different colours, and uh the Gestalt Booth has that big red-black splash across um and it really captures the eye. So I just credit the team for putting those those effects in.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

You said that you struggle, you know, to talk about your own book. So maybe let's talk about your process and your and your style. And what's what's something in your process that would surprise people, like a weird habit or a shortcut or a rule that you swear by when you're when you're doing a book?

SPEAKER_00 7:49

There's a couple of things. Uh I will go through and read the story once and then never look at the story and then just be working on the page that I'm working on. So there so I'm kind of often with the reader, page by page, going, cool, that's right. This person gets punched in the face or this this thing happens. And I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. The other thing is, and I I think I'm getting better at this, but you know, you you find me an artist who doesn't have imposter syndrome, and I'll call you a liar, but I really struggle with confidence in my art. And so I re-th there have been quite a few times where Wolf has said, can you just thumbnail this stuff? And he gets back finished pages, and he's like, Oh, but I need you to make a change. I'm like, that's fine. I'm happy to redraw that whole page from scratch, but I often don't feel like a page is going to work until it works. I will, you know, I can't visualize it as a a real thumbnail. So I go straight to inks. So I'll often clean them up or I'll try a different brush while I'm doing the inks and then go, that didn't work. That's great. And I'll go back and I'll draw a another page. I'll go draw the previous pages using that brush because I've recently discovered a really cool brush that just has that little bit of a broken nib, but just creates a little bit more organic texture to a to a page because I am entirely digital like most artists these days, and uh and I want to just create that sense that an an artist was involved, and sometimes the digital feeling can feel a little bit too polished. So I've just discovered a new brush that I I love that just give me that little bit of grit, that little bit of there's a the pins adding a um a touch of personality to the page.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

When does a page or a piece click?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

I think when I've got the movement down. I think I'm often happy with a page where the backgrounds are almost non-existent. It can be a real basic grid line, and I know that I can fill out that page and add the backgrounds, but um but when the movement is there, because it is really especially with some I really like to play with the camera to make these, especially with the Sinister, which is a very visceral visual, and you know, it's a fighting book. I really like to bring the camera around, make it feel like a big action film, and so there are lots of low cameras, high cameras, cameras, uh, camera angles that make the the figure pop more at the screen, and it's really because you're doing that, you're distorting, you're doing forced perspective so much, it's really easy to muck that up and and have a figure look wrong, and it's not until the figures and the movements right that I go, okay, this this panel's gonna work. But yeah, the the action is where I'm struggling. This is probably that might be something surprising, which is I I've been doing comics since 2007. Always been a fan of comics and and collected them, but I started doing a media degree, and it wasn't until I was you know well into my 20s that I went actually, I want to do this. Comics is my first love. I don't know why I'm doing this media stuff. So I started doing comics and doing a webcomic to force myself to draw every week. But it's taken until the sinister. I got to draw, you know, somebody getting stabbed in a gestalt in the Tower Guard story. A single thrust. I've I don't think I've ever really drawn a fight sequence up until uh up until now. So it has been an absolute learning curve and something that I'll have to go and find a therapist and then talk to about of how much I've been enjoying drawing this violence because it is so the it's not the violence itself, but it is the expressiveness of the human body in it in its violence, like a cool fight. Um, I don't know if you're watching it, but I'm loving Daredevil at the moment. And the way you can over five seasons now of Daredevil in the old season, you can reinvent a knee to the head, uh, a flip, a punch, uh, by finding the right angle, by finding the right little tweak of okay, he's gonna break his elbow, but is he gonna break it with his hand over his knee? Is it gonna so that that has been an absolute delight?

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Where do you get your references from when it comes to sort of those action poses? Are you looking in books? Uh are you referring to things like Daredevil Born Again or other films like John Wick? Is it or is it sort of a combination of multiple medias?

SPEAKER_00 12:08

It's a bit of a combination. Christian is a phenomenally detail-oriented, and he's got Christian's background is in writing, you know, like a Warhammer 40,000, things like that. And so he's incredibly law-based, and he's got a headcanon for pretty much everything. So when I've been doing the Sinister, the brief I've been given is that the main character, the Sinister, is a more of a Japanese, you know, martial artist with really great traditional karate flows. The the female character of the book, Strix, she's trained in a, and I'm going to butcher this, but there is a Greek martial art from ancient ro uh from ancient Greece. That's what they're used to compete in. And I cannot remember the name of it, so I won't even try it. But it's it's basically it's it's ancient kickboxing, it's mixed martial arts. It's it's a wrestling with punching and kicking, and it's a real, but it it has a very particular form. And uh I've been you know trawling the internet trying to find specific references to that. It's not a very well-known form, but at least it seems to be, it's referred to often as very similar to MMA. So I'm watching MMA trying to work out how an MA guy would fight against a karate person. I'm very fortunate I've got a couple of friends who are, you know, third dance and things like that that I can reach out to and go, uh, I need to do a cool a way to show uh that one character is really proficient in a punch, but then show the second character's really proficient in blocking that punch. And so it has to look like you know both of them are doing their job well rather than one of them can't punch and it's really easy to block. So that that's a real skill and and fun. And then sometimes I just you know, there's a couple of times where Christian's like he pokes him eye his eyes out, like uh three stooges. Um, and uh so yeah, then you just go, Well, what's what's a fun way of breaking a bone, of hurting somebody, of what's the most visually interesting?

SPEAKER_01 14:11

That's that's awesome. What's what's the part of creating comics that you probably enjoy the least? And like when you get to that point, how do you push through?

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Everything? Okay. No, sorry, I I I genuinely like I love the challenge. It's you know, when I started, it was to get better at things, and so um people often go, Do you write your own stories? And I'd say no, because if I wrote my own stories, I would be I would but the writer in me would write things for a lazy artist, and I want somebody else to write without any consideration of whether or not the artist can draw this. So that that's a challenge for me. So when I was doing sore bones, uh Jen Breach would write things, and it would be okay, this one's on a bicycle. Oh, cool. I've got to learn how to draw bicycles now. Um, they're not fun to draw, horses, uh, a carnival scene, so Ferris wheels and and um and carousels, and how do you draw all from interesting perspectives and different angles? And so I I love the challenge. What I'm struggling with, what I struggled with for years was blacks. Um got some great great advice from Gabe Hardman who did the Invisible Republic and some really cool DC work. I showed him my work and he was like, This is great, but why are you so afraid of blacks? Just embrace them. And that's a man who knows blacks, and so I just went into just started diving into because I really it's really scary drawing a great face and then putting shadow across it, and you go, I'm losing that expression, or I'm um, you know, will people be able to to read what's happening on the page if I'm if I'm covering it all with black. So that was scary. My current least favorite thing is colour. Um it's why I didn't colour my own books, but when I am playing, when I'm not doing a project that has to, I will I will colour my own stuff to practice, but it's still something that I I know I'm not good at and I I want to get better at. But yeah, it is the thing that I I loathe, but I will give but I'll keep doing.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Yeah, well you play to your strengths, don't you? Is there ever been like you've had a project that didn't work out? What what's it actually taught you from from being being in that that situation?

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Look, I mean, it's not that it hasn't worked out, but we we we haven't finished After the Snow yet. Um I have a completely drawn issue, but that that is a series, it requires a colorist, it requires a letter. I think what I am really bad at and what what After the Snow taught me is that I am not a self-publisher. There are a whole bunch of things that I don't have the capacity to do. One of the reasons why I love working with Gestalt is that I give I give Wolf pages, and they magically get lettered, and they magically get uh put into InDesign, whatever in InDesign is, and uh and whatever happens in InDesign happens and it turns into a book that gets and I show it up show up at a convention or I go to a comic book shop and my books are on the shelf and that takes away the sales, the the need for a Kickstarter. I just I loathe the process of kickstarting and people who can do it, more power to you, but it is not a I'm a I'm an introvert and feeding the social media beast is incredibly difficult. Uh yeah, absolutely respect to people to and I think it is part of the job now. Let me be clear that to anybody who wants to get into comics, being a social media person is now part of the job. So you need to learn it, but it's also something that I I really have to run up and take deep breaths before doing because it is that's that that I suppose that's where we differ, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Because I'm very much an extrovert and it's kind of my wheelhouse and I kind of really dig that that that scene. I mean, you said that you've been, you know, doing this from 2007 onwards, and you know, like myself, you've probably seen, you know, technology change, uh the way that things are done is different from from when you first started. What are some of those things that you've you've you've sort of noticed and has that helped you, you know, in ways to to accomplish whatever project that you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Everything has changed. I started well, I'm old enough to have not had access to Wacoms and things like that when I was when I was young. I I shelled out a a a fortune for an early 20-year-old to get one of the very first tablets. And when I talk about tablets, they were laptops where you could draw on draw on a screen. That's what a tablet was 20 years ago now. Um, so I had an Asus and a Toshiba, um laptops that ran you know windows, but you swivel the screen around and you could draw on the screen, and that was that was life-changing for me because when you're you know, you don't you don't have your own space when you're 20. You've got a bedroom and it's gotta also be a workspace. If you want to watch again 20 years ago, televisions were in bedrooms and things like that. You had to go to the family room or you wanted to go to a friend's house, just having a laptop where I could draw, but then Clip Studio and all these other and Procreate and all these programs that didn't exist when I it was used as Photoshop and you you were hacking together processes to draw art from a photo program. Uh Clip Studio Pro. But ClipStudio Pro is a phenomenal platform, and one of the things that I really love about it is that you can have different types of layer in the same project. So a black and white layer will give you crisp, sharp lines, and then underneath that you can have a color layer, and that will give you the you know the aliasing that happens when you've got blended colours and things like that. But a black and white um layer is sharp and clear, and when you blow it up or you blow it down, it doesn't go to heck because it is incredibly resilient. Um, so yeah, having to draw black and white line, you know, doing line art, Flip Studio Pro has been phenomenal. Yeah, but everything, you know, I'm old enough that everything has changed.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Everything's changed, right? From publishing, you know, back in the day where it cost an absolute fortune to self-publish, uh, to to to now where you can essentially get a a fairly decent printer at at not a lot of an expense and print it out yourself and and publish yourself and get out there is is very, very uh at the fingertips of of anybody who wants to do it, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah, I I'm fortunate that it like I was coming on the scene at a point when that was just starting. You know, it was a I could print in colour where people four four or five years older than me were just that was that was impossible. You'd have to go to China for that and do a print order of 10,000 comics and who can afford that. Whereas, you know, it was really almost the start of the print on demand thing. The thing that I think is sad or that we have lost is that Sorbones ran for you know seven, eight years or whatever on a personal server, and yeah, I promoted it on Facebook and things like that, but it had an audience because message boards and and there was the algorithm was a driving everything. And I and I worry about new creators being discovered because they are very much at the beat at the you know the whim of the Instagrams, the Facebooks, whatever those platforms are, and global comics or or webtoons or wherever you host them. But it's really hard to define your audience these days in a way that was a little bit easier in my old man rocking chair back in my day.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

I I I I think I've mentioned. on the show before, but uh I I had the privilege of interviewing Dan Slot um quite a number of years ago um who you know obviously has done some amazing work uh when it comes to both Marvel and also DC and one of the one of the things that I remember a question that was asked of him was you know how did you get into into comics and he he and it's always stuck with me that he said you know when at the time that I was doing it you know we didn't have social media and I created my own door a bit like Monsters Inc. where each child has their own door and he said and you have to create your own door and then once you've created that own door that's where your audience will know to walk through. Do you do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Absolutely I think and that that's why you know a couple of days ago I did free comic book day and got to meet people. Conventions are an incredible especially in a country like Australia conventions, free comic book days, your local stores and there's not enough local stores in Australia that support Australian comics. And so thank you to all those who do.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Meeting people and creating those places outside of the algorithm that can discover you and create a connection with people that's yeah that's phenomenal let's talk about influences if you could have dinner with someone you know any you know 12 people alive or dead who would it be I'm I'm gonna spin that a little bit more and say you know if you could collaborate with anybody alive or dead who who would you who would you want to do that with and why?

SPEAKER_00 23:41

I I do have a lot of infrared influence my favorite artists are uh Chris Samney I think again somebody and in there might be something inherent in me where I I crave what I don't have I what I'm desperate to get better or improve my skills so I'm looking you know I'm looking for where my my weaknesses are and those are the guys that I'm like you're you're doing witchcraft to achieve this thing that I can't achieve. Chris Samney has an amazing sense of and it's a recurrent theme in my my influences Chris Samney, Darwin Cook Mike Mignola it's far more about what they leave out than what they put in and I think that and uh somewhere on one of my walls up here I've got an original Alex Toth picture. Alex Toth for those who don't know was a an artist in the you know 50s 60s 70s. He was as well as doing a bunch of comics he created a lot of character designs for animation. Space ghost who younger people know from Space Ghost coast to coast. One of my favorite cartoons of all time is actually but Spay ghost space ghost and doing any of those film nation or Hanna Barbera cartoons was all about simplicity of line because you had to fire it 12 times a second so you had to make it clear fast. So Toth had he had just pads just littering your house full of little doodles where he was trying to do a woman or a pilot or a plane or a man in a suit with with the fewest lines and so you know I've got I've got a couple of drawings of Toth around the house because the simplicity of line I look at my artwork and I do not see any of that.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

I finish a page and I go I think it needs more lines but I wish that I really I'm so surprised about that because when you mention those those those influences I I I can definitely see it. I mean you you put me on to Darwin Cook with the with the Parker books back in the day. So I have you to thank for influencing me when it came to to Darwin Cook. Believe it or not I was just reading that it's been 10 years since Darwin's passing which is which I can't believe it's it's that it's gone so quickly but I again those influences that you're speaking about I can definitely see especially with the work that you're currently doing.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

I I was I I read them uh you know aggressively I powered through them they were the comics that I read when I was in my my my teens Quicklionards Dan Jurgens Walt Simpson Dan they were the comics I read as a in my youth and I look at my page and I'm like oh that that's all there on the page at no point did I ever go I want to draw like Dan I want to draw like Walt I just I was busy going man I wish I could be the next Darwin Cook you know missed this this influence that obviously the onion that permeated me for the rest of my life is is these comics from the 90s that were just so influential. The thing I love about Free Comic Book Day is it's it's that gateway drug of getting kids into comics. And clearly once you hooked you hooked because I was Jones in to participate in Free Comic Book Day and I I just called Mal at Impact Comics and just said I'm coming make room for I was not invited invited myself you kicked down the door and you walked in and said do that I'm gonna draw and Mal was talking to another comic book guy and they're like you know um surprise Trev drove up there for you and Mal said he would have sat on the stoop if I hadn't invited you know like if I hadn't that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Well I I mean with having you know those that would come up to uh either your table at a convention or during free comic book day I'm sure some of them are asking you the question like how do I get into comics? How do I start how do I how do I do this? You know what's what's that one piece of advice that you would probably give to those that are thinking about starting or have a project and they they don't know how to how to begin.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

A few things well it depends it depends uh if I've got my own story to tell I'd probably park my first if I've got a story that is really important to me that's the one that I'm not gonna do. I'm gonna sit on that because you'll be a better storyteller in five years' time than you will be right now. So hold off that one that you love. Build an audience with projects that possibly aren't your favorite you might be have incredible a hundred ideas and this is one that you're happy to burn but if this is the one that you go this is my Magnum opus that's on your park and get better as an artist. Start with short stories. You're gonna you're gonna discover things um one thing that always bothered me about Sawbones is that I created this visual style and I didn't think I was going to be drawing it. I love drawing the stories but I didn't think I was going to be drawing those characters for as long as I did not better as an artist and I'd kind of drawn my way into a design that gave me no way to grow as an artist. Yeah you you've got these stories you want you want to be you want the ability to go cool I've played with that style for four pages for eight pages for ten pages and then move on to the next thing and and try something new whereas if you're doing a long form comic that's what you're drawing you're drawing in that style you're drawing those characters for the next 64 120 pages potentially years of your life so it's probably not worth it the other thing about short stories is um you have more opportunities to to play with different artists uh different writers different collaborators so you you know get to work with other people and it's also what you want to put in a portfolio but when I want to get a job with a Marvel or a DC they're gonna want to see three or four different examples of my work and so doing short stories means I can do the the story in space and show the show Marvel that I can draw a space story and draw the Western and show Marvel I can draw a Western and a third one that is a superhero and show Marvel that I can draw superheroes. Marvel please hire me is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

What's next for you?

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Are we getting more Unmasked the sinister are we uh is there something new coming out that you can tell us about uh there is one more story for Unmasked one more issue of Unmasked and it's I'm really fortunate I think Christian Reid the writer is if if you haven't read the Lark file case files which is his novel series it's phenomenal and I think he wants to spend his time on those lark stories but because of that Christian's thrown everything at the wall for this last issue so I'm going I'm really looking forward to getting started. But it's one of those things where I as I was saying you know hold on to your good ideas and Christian's got this might be his last comic so he's gonna throw everything at the wall and I'm gonna gratefully take all that and and pour it onto the page. After that I've got two other projects I don't think I can talk about either one of them is hopefully a an amazing period piece and I've been playing with it's like fairies and and things that are kind of again outside of my wheelhouse and you know Downtobe meets fairies or Prejudice meets fairies or something and I'm and that might be fun. And there's another stall project that I'm um that that I'm keen on. I'd love to go back into the the Talguard world too but as it currently stands once you've you've had a bite of the apple that's no more but I just uh finishing off with our last question that we um that we ask everybody on the show who would you nominate for us to uh to catch up with next have you spoken to Gary Bradley yet not yet we haven't no Gary is just I mean a he's one of the sweetest men in complexity he is just um he has a heart so big that cardiologists are worried about it but also he's just uh you know the breadth and width of his storytelling he's done you know giant monsters philosophy food love which is just the most beautiful story about how we connect food with our experiences absolutely Gary and also he is a massive uh Fantastic Four fan and Dr. Doom is one of my favorite characters so him and I often just get together and I'm like okay so how are we how are we gonna take over Fantastic Four?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yeah well I I look forward to that I'll be the first one in line to get a a Gary and Trev uh first issue yeah but uh thanks for your time it's it's always great to chat with you it's been far too long and um I think um everybody who's who's listening to this will will agree that um from listening to what you've had to say is some some really great wisdom and um yeah really grateful for your time.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Thanks again Trevor Burrus Like what you're hearing tell your friends follow us on socials at Pop CulturePod and if you're feeling generous drop us a five star review on your favorite podcast platform.